Lineup Discussion

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Lineup Discussion

Post  Genkidesuka on Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:09 pm

Looking at the sticky it looks like we need this Razz

So, about the pugna solo thing: If pugna can't solo, who would be able to reliably handle a dual stun lane as a solo? Apart from QoP/PotM please, because I know blink > that.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:26 pm

If you are specifically playing against double stunners, bm, since it is common to use wild axes to help him farm and they have 1000 range, you also can make use of quil boar to help with farming too. Puck, since you have phase shift to avoid the first (the most dangerous stun usually). Possibly magnataur, since he basically has less range, but more spammability for his shockwave, also more hp is higher chance of survival. Morphling, you can't actually dodge the stun with waveform I think (this will have to be confirmed), but the extra distance you get away with saves you). Hmm a cautious zeus, but definitely weaker down the line. (basically you need to abuse fog). Nerubian weaver has ww to dodge stuns, but once ward its pretty much gg. Which brings to mind clinkz O_o. Lion if he goes impale mana drain might pull it off but it'd be ridiculously difficult. Nerub assassin, a very weak maybe. Basically any hero that can still kill creeps without being hit by a stun such as stormbolt.

Your worst opponent stunners will be SK and CK, since they have the fastest acting stuns.

O and possibly PA due to her slow nuke but I wouldn't recommend it at all.

Have I missed any? O_o

Usually the best counter is another double stun combo Smile.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Genkidesuka on Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:55 pm

BM will get the shit kicked out of him in a 1v2 lane. Absolutely no question about it. There's no reason for him to not jungle anyway.

Maggy needs to solo mid, he gets harassed too badly in a 1v2 lane and needs to 1v1 it where he can sometimes outlane the more fragile solos due to his superior health and base damage.

Zeus is in the same boat as Pugna really, except that he can stay further away and occasionally last hit with arc.

Anyone with WW, in a competitive game, will be countered at level 1, or possibly level 2 if sents weren't bought initially Smile

Morphling, yeah, but he's in the same category as QoP/PotM (ie, he can blink). You don't see Morphling much anymore though.

Impale/Mana Drain lion wouldn't do crap. 20 mana/second at level 1 is pitiful when they can chainstun you at 2/reliably at 3.

Nerubian Assassin, again, same thing.

PA is probably one of the worst; Blink Strike is incredibly difficult to dodge spells with, she's also incredibly squishy. Even 1v1 she gets completely dominated.

Regarding the most feared stunners; CK definitely, almost impossible to dodge his stun with blink for example. Same with SK. Leo/Sven is a lot easier to do. But against a CK/Lina lane, for example, there are plenty of solos who get just as dominated as Pugna, if not all of them. Because double stun > everything.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Stankey on Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:08 am

I am still not really a big fan of magnus solo mid aye. Ive seen it done in a pro game and it didnt go well for them. The sf he was against dominated late game and the mag did nothing besides his ulti. I saw a magnus jungle which was wierd, its kinda cool using wave to attract a new creep camp over and then carry on with your drawn creep wave, i think he almost tripple creep pulled. (not stacked, but pulled. Like went through 3 camps with a creep wave).

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:10 am

Eh? You haven't seen a good bm solo?. And you seriously underestimate the loss of 70-80 mana can do, when the str initiators have such small pools of mana. I'll agree though most of the possible solo hero possibilities aren't ones I would want to see in a team we would play with Razz, i was just brainstorming. Also the enemy (and us) is not guaranteed to send a hero to solo mid, like if you knew there was sf on enemy team, you'd either send a solo hero who can take him, or dual stunners.

With the solo vs sf thing. For magnus (or say tiny), they need to take advantage of sf's low base damage, and pretty much out last hit ridiculously, those heroes are relatively tanky, they can hurt sf's hp really well with their spells, the only requriement is that they runewhore and/or get tangos and/or clarities galore. The main trick is basically to reach lvl 6 before sf and kill him or earlier. Eg BM would use axe, roar, tiny, well tiny is tiny doesnt need lvl 6, magnus for rp.

O and a random idea I've had for a while is to get stormspirit lothars/dagger and use him as an initiator with grapple. Razz

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Genkidesuka on Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:34 am

DR wrote:O and a random idea I've had for a while is to get stormspirit lothars/dagger and use him as an initiator with grapple. Razz

Why not just use tiny and toss then? He's more useful... Razz

Anyway, BM can jungle faster than some solos can hit 6 so there's no point in him soloing if he won't dominate the lane anyway.

What loss of 70-80 mana? I'm confused.

Also, it usually depends on their solo; If they send two stunners mid, they're sending their solo either bot or top against our possible 2 stunners, which is not much of an advantage for them.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:12 am

Yeah tiny is more useful, its just something I thought up way back and havent really tried (kind of like the idea where you have darkseer and weaver, more fun than competitive, younever know though), but it probably wouldnt be that good. Hmmm... Well depends on teammates. You also can't really expect bm to jungle without intervention. But that gets too much into players. If he is pure jungling he will go down low in hp (actually what if he went pots and tangoes lots? hmm probably too expensive but thats something else), if pulling, well its pretty obvious when he does. What happens after that depends on who you is in the "jungle" lane (ie. what is the enemy going to do about it). The loss of 70-80 mana is from mana burn/ mana drain.

You might have bm solo to tie up two heroes (because thats what you need to keep him down, somewhat like magna) and hope your other 2v1 lane rips up

Also we should think that we will never have the "best" line up we coudl hope for, since some of the heroes we want the enemy will probably want.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Genkidesuka on Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:43 am

Mana burn from what? Where do you buy your drugs?

BM can easily be shut down by more solos than Maggy can, especially if he isn't soloing mid, because his nuke is less reliable/harder to hit.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:38 pm

Mana burn was for the NA and lion scenario. BM's nuke is harder to aim, but it has long range and it has a very high base damage he also has access to quil boar which imo makes it easier for him to farm, a side issue is that he'll use up more mana (buy clarities and rune whore).

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Super_Boy on Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:04 pm

NA easily reduces the mana that SK or some one else needs to cast thier stun he can either go waste all his mana to reduce there mana to nothing at level one or typically even he will get level 3 before the other 2 get level 3 if when he is hassled. If they choose to waste all there mana at level 1 then yeah a few healing supplies are needed but after that the double stun potential is significantly decreased.

I think a properly played and very cautious sniper wouldn't fair to badly either. And Puck would do quite well with the auto cast of his phase.

Darkseer + Weaver is so funny (course wouldn't work to well in a proper game), last time I did that I died a lot on weaver cause it was too much fun killing people with watchers I forgot about low hped Weaver in front of creeps

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:07 pm

welcome to the forums super boy.

For darkseer and weaver, me and a friend were tiny and lina vs two other friends as those two heroes. Basically instant we buy wards its gg Razz. Was amusing while it lasted though.

Sniper = ewww for me, unless you wanted some kind of scatter shot strat (goes looks up some details), thats actually possible O_o. The since even with range boost, sniper is rather vulnerable to double stunner... but scatter shot is hmmmm, maybe too hard to aim. Maybe something to look up sometime.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Genkidesuka on Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:23 pm

Sniper isn't a bad solo, its just he doesn't do anything at all except ks or throw an (albiet decent) single target nuke every so often. Once he's farmed up its usually gg but its so easy to stop him he's barely worth using.

Sure, NA can mana burn say, SK to avoid getting stunned (as often). The problem being that he's still melee, he still has a below average mana pool, he still is squishy, and he still gets raped by doublestuns. He's also amazing in a dual lane, though he can solo mid fairly well. Plus no self respecting Lion would go a skill that is obsolete by 2 levels after you max it... ><

The problem with BM's axes is that they get reduced by armor. So they actually do a hell of a lot less than the 360 damage they state. And plus, why are we still discussing solo BM when he's a fucking amazing jungler? :O

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:59 pm

Because sometimes jungling just doesn't work or you don't want to leave one lane "weak". Yes they are reduced by armour, except early game, very few enemy heroes have high armour, and your base axe damage is so high it still comes out strong.

Lions mana drain is definitely not obsolete,in the early game into the ganking stage, the mana loss you can cause an opponent is nothing to be laughed at. Although I'd rather put lion in a lane with say lina.

Anyway I tried a scatter shot sniper (against ai btw), it plays much the way as you'd play a bm, basically with piss all effort you can get what would be a half decent farm in any case. (In terms of CS, buying clarities does take something away Razz), but with effort it could really be quite effective, even in a double stun lane O_o. Would I ever want sniper to do that though? unlikely Razz, but for sake of experimentation it seems like something of interest.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Stankey on Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:05 am

lol snipers not the best plan. I never get scattershot with him either.

with bm, i used to jungle with him, i remember him being harder to farm with then other heroes, but now that you can fill bottle on crow it would be easier, and also now that i can jungle with pulling heroes quite well i could just use that until he gets some axe levels, and the do the whole double camp agro with your axe thing (and kill 2 camps at once). Btw you are crazy if you think bm will beat a solo to lvl 6. Just crazy.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:24 am

I reckon bm jungle would beat (insert some poor hero against 2 stunners) :p. Unless there we two stunners in bms "lane" , in which case bm gets stuffed jungling too.
About bottle + crow though, it seems to really, hmm drag on the team, especially since the two "solos" need the gold to survive their lanes, that means the two support need to ward, crow, etc. rather expensive.

Btw, with BM i managed a 8 minute lvl 6, I brought the chicken and just gg branches. So with bottle + crow, you could do it in 6 minutes Smile, well record i heard is 6:20, but damned hard to do if enemies come to disturb you.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Stankey on Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:35 am

how fast does a perfect solo get to level 6? btw there is no way to out lvl or out farm a good solo laner with a jungler. You get more gold and exp from creep. Assuming you stay in your lane.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Genkidesuka on Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:11 pm

not if you doublestack 3 camps at the same time. It can be done, its ridiculously hard but it can be done.

If you argue that junglers can be ganked, well, why the fuck can't soloers?

BTW the coolest thing I saw with BM was ancienting at level 1. He'd pull heaps of creeps from bot lane to the ancient camp near Rosh until they eventually died. That'd have the effect of both denying entire waves of creeps and allowing 3 solos/2 jungles :O

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:18 pm

The only time practically, you'd see a jungler out level a solo is if the solo was beaten up (denied hard, or just pushed out of xp zone, whatever) Razz which is what I meant earlier. Roughly about 6-7 minutes

At ancients :O OOOOO i read aobut it, but seeing must be so much cooler Razz.

Its alot easier to disrupt a jungler. A laner has creeps and a tower in case of any problems. A pull jungler will have creeps, but to pull they have to be close to the lane, so it is easy for enemies to go to the spot and interrupt whether or not it does any good depends on heroes and skill concerned.

A main thing about jungling, is that disruptions waste a lot of time, mainly say.. you cant kill a camp in time for it to respawn, which then takes off a minute of time each time it happens. Doesn't stop at that either, an enemy can just walk up to creep spawn point before spawn time and prevent a camp spawning. Another minute wasted. The camps that are "safer" from that kind of problem are also the ones that cant be pulled.

Btw, since pulling can be so easily predicted, might well be useful as a trap. If you say have, potm soloing, and tiny(insert any other aoe damage hero here) pulling. It is reasonable to see that the enemy will come along to interrupt... tiny, uses his stun to finish off the neutral creeps, hurting the enemy as well Smile Enemy is now focus fired by surviving creeps and tiny, at lvl 1-3 (since this crap happens early) its quite a lot of dps. Potm arrows, first blood a while later.

Also a random idea i had a while back.

You have 3 solos,and 2 junglers working together. The two junglers could jungle faster than 1, they'll level lower, but by having 3 heroes bot could also gank more (similar to a trilane but not quite). The two junglers would definitely be behind the curve, but you'd have 3 soloers, and if the two junlgers gank sufficiently they'll even out both from xp from kills but also making the enemy lose xp since they are dead. Only real regret is that it'd take a bit of time and experimentation to get right :S

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Stankey on Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:14 pm

I have a replay of MYM using 2 junglers. They just used furion jungling the 2 creep camps by the mid lane and the other other one using the other three. they did alright. I cant remember the other jungler.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:14 pm

It was furion and jug. But thats not what I mean't. They jungled separate camps. The heroes that are useful and "jungable" (rofl word) are not many. What I want to have a look at is 2 heroes jungling together. It roughly means you have hero with twice the hp and damage jungling. Just supposing we ignore the lanes for now. If you pull the first wave of creeps to the first camp, then the second, usually you aren't able to pull to the third camp because you run out of creep (assuming you aren't a lucky person with bottle crow Smile and even then it depends). With two heroes, you get more damage in, you can double spawn more camps and so forth. The best part is some player tries to interrupt your jungle, and faces two heroes, three if your laner comes to help.

If you could get the competent soloers to pull it off, just how would things turn out?

And you wouldn't need the heroes to be furion and jug, you could try two "non" jungler heroes, or one jungler + one non jungler. It's all speculation (with thought behind it) but thats how everything starts anyway.

O and as a random example, sven and centaur, centaur goes for double shield, sven buys the tangoes, every now and then they come out and kill a hero then go back to jungling, since those two heroes don't need a very high level to kill stuff.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Stankey on Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:08 am

yeah that would be fun to try. You would just have to be really on to it, and probably be using vent. Keeping an eye on time so you can both stack camps. I was thinking something like that a tank and a dmg dealer. But now i think that if we are going to be stacking all these camps someone like axe or bristleback that is better against stacked camps would be useful. Or centaur and dark seer, he can spam his dmg shield on centaur, or lord of anervus could shield centaur. Theres so many combos with 2 people. I thought pudge and someone would be funny, they would never know when the hook is coming cus ur always missing lolz. But you would be too slow getting lvl 4 hook. We shud try it, i cant play till after exams probly, but do u have ventrillo? If you dont u guys should work on getting it set up by the time im back.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:09 pm

Vent slows my net too much :S. It isn't "that" hard to cooperate. And you only have to stack 1-2 camps.

Basically, if you stack the easy camp, and kill the two medium camps and half the hard camp every minute, you'll both be level 6 11:30, assuming you can wipe out the easy camp at 11, or every now and then (stacked 7 times is kinda a little, crazy) from just neutralling. If you kill heroes it'll slow you down (levels 1-3, dking the enemy will help though, after lvl 3 it evens then gets better), but you also retard the enemies progress as well. Can probably do it under 11:30, but it would be tricky no doubt.

Anyway I looked up the numbers.
A solo hero gets to lvl 6 at about 7 minutes in, assuming not denied and no kills/deaths
If you manage to wipe out the 2 medium and big creep camp each minute in time for them to respawn you will OUT level the solo player (assume you solo jungle). I think I'll just bring up something obvious, so long as you can kill the creep camp in time for it to spawn, or stack it so you can wipe it out later (without too much trouble), no "xp" is lost in terms of opportunity.

Axe and sven for example is a good one, since axe is basically like a centaur Razz. Bristleback has been majorly nerfed btw, so there are just better heroes to get now instead. TBH i was never a fan of him, doesn't mean we can't try him though Razz. So long as one of the heroes is a capable initiator for ganks and the other can follow up then they can pretty much annhiliate bottom laners.

Avernus would be bad btw, since you will be tanking a ridiculous amount of damage so shield does crap all. (Shield blocks before all the vanguard and reduction stuff).

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Stankey on Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:50 pm

yea his shield still damages them though. And he can heal if need be. Btw there is no point in stacking the small creep camp, its not worth the effort for the time it wastes. Well killing or stacking all 3 camps with one person every minute isnt going to happen. Btw which is the "big" creep camp?

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:59 pm

Big one is the one with furbolgs. The small one is worth stacking since they give almost as much xp as a centaur + out runner, and same if not more gold. So thats pretty much the camp you slaughter with aoe after stacking. Also if you stack the small one each time you have enough time to run to the first pull and pull it.

You can kill two creep camps (assuming you pull) and maybe stack one-two with one hero (depends on your damage output). If hero has summons can kill 2-3 and stack 2-1 camps. With stacking its just a question of can you kill it later. With two heroes, you can kill 2 creep camps and stack 2 definitely, how much depends on the way you use the heroes.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Stankey on Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:32 pm

I use the small camp to kill for gold/exp when i have plulled the first camp. I would rather kill it then stack it. The time you spend waiting for the right time to stack, then the running time just doesnt make sense to me when you can kill them so fast, maybe with enough time for corpses to dissapear.

Dunno bout you but im not fast enough to get all three camps every minute, or to be able to stack with spawns while last hitting the camp im at. Its not that easy lol. Maybe do it once, but not every minute one after the other. Also it gets hard to stack creeps once there are stacked already a couple of times. I dont think there is actually time to pull creeps kill 2 camps and then get 2 the last camp by 53seconds or whatever. especially not the small camp.

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