Lineup Discussion

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Genkidesuka on Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:39 pm

There's less mathcraft involved in whether a BM jungle can outlevel a solo because denies hurt more than people give them credit for. Also, do you mean kill one medium and one large, or both mediums and both large in order to outlevel him? Killing both mediums and both large seems like it would give you a lot more experience than that.

Two person jungling would be interesting. I'm not sure how well it would work, and in which lineups it would work though. Because finding 3 non-picked non-banned solo heroes that fit into your lineup is hard enough to do, without having to also pick the select few who can jungle together without needing too much in the way of levels.

The thing I wanted to try do is if the other team has no heroes that jungle, you can plant some degree of wards there and take their jungle instead with a different hero, so you have 5 lanes instead of 4. I'm not sure how hard to pull off it would be but the benefits would be extremely vast.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Stankey on Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:14 pm

we had pink is blue go steal their jungle in a pub game, was rather ammusing lol. Hard to pull creeps though.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:04 pm

Stealing someone elses jungle would/is be hilarious. Leaves one guy awfully vulnerable though. And it's 2 medium and 1 large to outlevel a solo. (but only by a small margin), if you did the 2 medium and the small the solo outlevels you, by a small margin Razz. Atm the jungling values for xp (gold I haven't looked too much) are unfair based on creep strength (according to one thread about balancing the creep xp/gold stats).

I'll agree killing three camps, or just two and stacking the small is quite difficult. Which is why you either need a summoner who can micro an image to stack or a spammer. You really need the technique of pulling a creep wave to two camps very solid, since your creeps contribute alot. Pulling the third spawn to them is a good idea too, since even if they kill nothing you've just denied the whole creep wave.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Genkidesuka on Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:40 pm

More effective than denying an entire wave also, because they get zero experience instead of a small portion. Incidentally, how much experience is awarded per melee/ranged creep?

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:09 pm

62 for ghouls
41 for druids

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Stankey on Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:32 pm

i have never manged to draw the third camp. I tried it, and they were in range of the creeps but they didnt agro them for some reason. Its fukin hard. Is it even possible on scourge? I think it would be a fair bit easier with beastmaster because you can get rid of the trees, and aggro them with you axes. This reduces the distance they have to run, and you can continue to last hit, or last hit with your axes when they return to you. After that you can pull with your boar if you cant axe. The only thing is, with the creeps sitting around fighting for ages you end up going over a minute and the camps dont respawn. I guess after that you could almost go to the small camp and kill it. But then your only getting the 2 medium 1 large and a small every 2 minutes. Thats not too bad really, but your not going to beat a solo with that. I still dont really think it is repeatadely acheivable. Your main task is to do good enough, and give your team another solo, if your team has 2 soloers. This is the big mistake we make a lot, we just assume we should jungle, but dont pick 2 solo heroes.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:44 pm

An even bigger mistake I see is the laner says "go pull" then gets owned.
For scourge, I think you can only pull two camps. On the other hand you can pull two camps independently, unlike for sent where you have to pull 1, then the other.
Pulling the third camp without bm (for sent) is most likely the hardest Razz.

Yeah not killing creeps fast enough is a big problem, which is why a mass clarity int might be able to do something (also why he triple pull bottle crow method works at all). As we all know exams are looming Smile, but I'm hoping to get some decent experimentation done sometime. Also there is a multiple hero setting for single player, so I can test the dual hero jungle there.

It's a danger in thinking "its good enough" since that just means we aren't trying Smile. The other strength of a jungler btw is to come out and strike then go back jungling. So supposing a pull gets screwed, or creep don't spawned, just go kill a hero (but need right heroes of course).

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Stankey on Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:27 pm

Yeah, you need someone that can lane well bottom if your gna jungle, or its probably smarter to put like qop or someone top lane, nevermore or someone middle, then two stunners bottom. Because pulling creeps and loosing bottom tower early is a big disadvantage. If your trying to junge without bottom tower you are much more prone to ganks, and the people in bottom lane are also, you have nowhere to hide/run to. I dont know how many times i have juked in those trees underneath the bottom tower while the tower was owning there hero and then got the kill lolz. So many times.

Would be keen as to try out a centaur/sven lunge combo with you, that wud be awesome. What build would you go on sven though? Would you get armour to help out centaur? Or cleave for creeps? And just level 1 stombolt for ganking? Its a toughie.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:14 am

Well if its ap
cent will have only enough gold to get two stouts.
Sven would get a
tp scroll, 135 (in case he needs to save someone mid or top, this could be optional though depending on laners)
chicken, 225 (360)
1 clarity 50 (410) Could be optional too
2 tango 180 (590)

Stun stats for sven, since he really needs to get a mana pool big enough to cast two stuns. At lvl 3 with 1 lvl stun and 2 stats, he needs 1 gg branch for a mana pool of 280 which is just big enough. For Centaur, I'm not sure if it is better to go double edge and stomp or return and stomp, might be situational since you aren't jungling alone.

Yes losing the bot tower is a big advantage, which is why with cent and sven you can kill the enemy heroes so the laner can kite the creeps from the tower. Also helps if the laner as aoe, but optional really. The main weakness of losing bot tower though is really the tping imo and the "safety" since you can easy place two wards bot and have full knowledge. It is pretty easy for a 4 man dive to wipe out two heroes bot Razz. But basically try to feed off the bot heroes and win out that way.

Depending on how centaur sven work out, might be able to open up choices to include like say, tiny and so forth.

For top lane, Bm would be my choice, but QoP is okay too, I just tend to ignore her thats all, since you should expect a tough lane top.

And yes would be great to try sometime.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Stankey on Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:05 pm

I would want ranged hero with an escape top solo. If bm is top vs 2 he will have a hard time last hitting/denying because they will harass and he is pretty vunerable to ganks top lane, since he has to stray a good distance from his tower. This is assuming he isnt getting owned in his lane with them pushing tower early, either of these dont end well for bm (dying/no gold/no exp) or the team (loosing tower). Mid or bot he could maybe solo because he is safer and junglers can come help gank, but yeah... Unless you chucked your double lane top to look after that, and someone like nevermore bottom, who can handle the creeps and still last hit/deny with his high dmg and range. Then get helped out by the jungler.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:54 pm

Well reason I'd have bm is that he can just go wards for top + mass clarity. As melee, he doesn't lose as much xp from deny either. Agreed its harder to last hit deny, but you spam axe and with use of quil boar can get you 4 cs a minute as well as keeping your opponents at mid-low hp (axe has 1300 cast range) makes him pretty hard to gank. But thats just an option. If you could have him mid it'd be the best, but in that case you def need a potm/qop/puck top. I'm of the opinion that BM would actually do better than those 3 if you were facing say, SK/ leshrac. Since you stay well out of range of Sand Kings immediate stun, out of leshys lightning spam, if you get denied it doesn't hurt as much, and you are pretty much rushing lvl 6. Smile. And it would be only if they were doing a push strat would the tower get pushed, in which case axe may/may not counter it enough.

In other news I did a dry run of the double jungle. 13 minutes have enough xp between the two heroes for both lvl 6, but cent actually has more xp, so he is lvl 6 and sven level 5. (because I use sven to do the pulling).

225 gold worth from chicken
1500 gold worth on centaur
270 gold worth on sven
+1000 gold in the bank
so a total of 3k gold. I'll admit 3k gold between 2 heroes isn't very much Razz

But, I didn't specifically last hit either (too busy trying to pull), so I have lost some gold there (about 600 I'd say), plus as only 1 player I lost another 600 gold from time accumulation.

So potentially looking at 4k gold between two players maybe. Which looks better. I missed some pulls, double spawns etc (some more gold perhaps? Smile). But in all seriousness, it is KICK ass. Also I think that it isn't necessary to use the small creep camp at all.

What happens is, when the first camp spawns, attack it, at 13-17 you pull it to wards incoming creeps, sven has to get ready to pull the 2nd camp already, then 1st camp dies pretty fast as it is weakened, you have to start killing the 2nd camp really fast to pull the 3rd camp in time so that the first camp doesn't respawn and interrupt. I don't know if you can fit double spawning the small camp in there, if you could at some point would be good. Sven will be slightly lower level than centaur (at one point cent was lvl 5 and sven was 3) depending on pulls, but I'm very sure 11 minutes isn't out of question, any lower have to see. The main thing is how often to gank enemy heroes.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Stankey on Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:46 am

Why does getting denied not hurt as much? Axes are pretty easy for decent palyers to dodge, unless in mid lane where you can hide your cast animation. Plus a good team of two wouldnt stand together, so you could only hit one. How do you plan to get 4cs a minute with boar and axes? I dont think you would be able to last hit/deny sufficiently with the boar with its low damage and slow cast animation. So you wouldnt get any circlets/bracers at the start? and no regen either?

Yeah the double jungle really needs to be tried with 2 people (one using each hero). Makes last hitting easier, and sven could actually still hang around for xp then run off 2 pull. Have you managaed to pull the third camp? I have never managed to. Do you go the bottom camp, then up and right then the one left of that? Thats what i do, but havent got the third camp before. I normally just go run and kill the small creep camp after that, or go pull the bot camp again if their respawn wasnt blocked.
I rekon centaur needs 2 go hard on return. What hero do you think would be best to go bottom with the double jungle? I have a feeling nevermore. Just because he is like the best laner in the game lol. But really because his aoe can keep the tower healthy and maybe the heroes on low hp so they will be less tempted to harass him. Also because he can still last hit/deny vs 2 heroes. And lastly because when centaur runs in and stomps their two heroes he can spam his shadow raze and kill them pretty quick while they are in the same place. Then you have sven to stun and finish off whoever doesnt die. (or you could initiate with sven, but then the other hero could still run off).

Maybe tiny and centaur would be a better idea. That would be ownage. Initiate with tinys stun as he pops out from some trees, giving time for centaur to get in and stun them both. Then you have shadowraze/toss to rape whoever is still alive. Plus if you have nevermore to carry, you dont need sven so much.

Ok so whats the lineup we gna try?

Im keen for

Top - puck/potm/
Mid - leshrac
Jungle - centaur and tiny
Bot - nevermore

or even lina instead of tiny, easier to pull at night with a ranged hero.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:47 pm

For bm, since as melee when denied he gets 36/32 xp, rather than a range who gets was it, 18/16 xp? well anyway, as melee he doesn't lose as much xp from denying. With quil boar, you can use it to disrupt the creeps current target by using it to aim for a hero then cancelling, then the target of the creeps changes. You can then use quil boar to keeping hitting an enemy creep. Once 2-4 creeps are at killing hp, you just axe. No circlets or bracers at the start. Just wards to stop yourself dying, and clarities and/or tangoes. With chicken you can keep up a good flow of mana for casting. Whether or not you can injure the enemy heroes with axe depends alot if they are melee or not. If its melee, more likely to be close enough. If not there are certain things a ranged hero will definitely do (like last hit). Also the screen just isn't really big enough for a hero to look at their own hero, and however far away bm is standing (unless you leave a hero in the corner which is just, awkward). Sure the axes are dodgeable, on the other hand your taking on two stunners and cautiouness can pay off

For pulling, yes I draw the bottom camp, then the camp above, then the camp left. However I think you can draw the left camp directly to the bottom camp, but I'll have to look at it more closely, and also not as reliable as the camp above.

Return can be used optionally, just slows things down thats all, but you also get more damage for ganking, depends on how well you manage to pull the creeps.
About centaur/lina initiating, those are usually harder heroes to start off a combo with since their stuns aren't necessarily easy to land. But it is all situational so yeah. About nevermore, if we have enemy double stunners bot, SF might be in trouble, since his base attack is so low and hp is bad. To fix it though we can just gank more so it should be fine. We could even just attack at lvl 1 if needed.

For line up, I suppose whatever goes, since we don't know about what they pick/ban.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Stankey on Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:27 pm

This isnt to try out in a war. We gota try it in an inhouse/pub first rofl. Yeah hence why i thought tiny would be good to jungle with centaur. If they cant see lina, you can hit your stun most of the time, tiny probably more reliabiable though. Return i rekon is needed for fast jungling and creep killing in lanes later. You dont really need double endge if you have that much aoe damage. Plus you want nevermore getting the kills. I rekon nevermores base dmg isnt that low, especially if he gets a couple of levels in his damage skill.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:43 pm

Well, in a higher level game Smile I kind of expect the bot heroes to have a ward, or they are just going to die Razz. With nevermore, his starting damage is so low, I'll agree when he has full souls its monstrous. But early on, it makes him ridiculously weak until he has lvl 3 (level 2 soul raze). But anyway, I suppose the two junglers can fix up that getting denied so much problem. I'll try a jungle without centaur or without return later and see how it works out.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Stankey on Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:45 pm

you could probably jungle with centaur without return, but only with two people. Alone you need it. But return is such a good skill, i have seen heroes killed with at before haha. They had no hp and attacked low hp cent and they died lolz. silly pplz. Yeah but how long does level 3 take with a solo nevermore? Especially when he has a fast attack animation anyway, his damage isnt that different from the rest, they are all pretty low initially, except for your obvious ones like pudge etc.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:40 pm

Actually, SF has a really low attack damage early on
35-41 its even lower than QoP O_o
How fast he hits level 3, maybe about 4 (guess) minutes in? assuming no denies. But when you are facing something like Tiny slayer...

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Stankey on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:04 pm

yeah but the plan is that we have tiny, and that we gank them at lvl 3, before they can kill him. Hes just gota be careful till then. Plus they are both low hp, and with a few well placed razes he can keep their health down, or use it to last hit. Also if you needed the damage, you can add on the damage from getting lvl 1 damage skill. (assuming you kill some creeps lol). Who else can we put bottom though? Who can solo a lane vs two stunners well? He needs some spike damage to help kill when junglers gank. He needs 2 be able 2 carry too, well its nice to have a carry. He also needs area damage to be able to keep the tower healthy with the junglers taking his creeps.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:33 pm

Tiny is hardly low hp, and tiny, slayer is just an example. . In any case, I'm actually arguing about the hero more than any line up O_o. So umm, sorry Razz I get carried away.

Anyway, puck, BM, Potm can fit two of the category. Magnus, Potm the carry one. Umm blah Razz. We going in circles maybe.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Stankey on Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:00 pm

lolz ok. Maybe we try it with nevermore lolz. Me and you can jungle it.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:09 pm

Yeah, btw, there are some bits really require both players to act together. Like if you eat a tree of the sent bot camp, leaving a hole to pull the next camp. If I pull the top camp down, what you can do is after the creeps follow through the hole, you can stand exactly where the tree stump is and hold position, stopping the creeps from escaping. Thats mainly for if we haven't killed off the first camp or to stop the 2nd camp attacking if we say dont have creeps to tank (they do attack, just not as much).

Razz Sent jungle has so much more pulling potential zzz. I haven't done any experimenting with scourge yet.

And I think dazzle would be really good to jungle support.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Genkidesuka on Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:59 pm

QoP/PotM solo bot top would be most ideal against anything but instantaneous targeted stunners like SK/Lion/Nerub or something. Of course, if that were the case you could probably just have Centaur solo instead with PotM jungling (arrow is ridiculous at level 1 anyway). Of course that would mean Tiny would have to tank... Too many variables :O

Yes Sentinel still seems better for jungling but Scourge have definitely improved since the 6.48 days. Not to mention being able to triple pull Sentinel camps with BM without breaking a sweat is ridunkulous...

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:09 pm

Actually in 6.48b you could pull two creep spots from mid lane, which was kinda funny.But hmmm,, yeah it is better now.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  Stankey on Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:18 pm

Yeah sweet as. Sounds good. Another fun one would be 2 get two people with spawns like brood and undying. Would be useless for ganking but would be fun lolz.

Yeah dazzle would be cool. You could also try beastmaster and furion together. You could get rid of a whole load of trees really quick lolz. Would makeing pulling 3 camps every time really easy. You could just run off with furion and hit the camp from long range, getting them to come over while beastmaster last hits. You will also have the trees to tank. Then you still have some ganking skills with tree trap thing, boar, axes, and roar at lvl 6.

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Re: Lineup Discussion

Post  DR on Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:49 pm

Why don't we just do that instead of centaur + whatever lol. Furion is alright, but the main point of the dual jungle is to get decent heroes that don't normally jungle + extra solo xp Razz.

A side problem as your heroes get higher level, is keeping the neutrals alive long enough to get pulled, then to pull to the 2nd camp O_o. Although do you think if we can kill them that fast by then, better off just straight jungling?

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