The Meta Game

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The Meta Game

Post  Deja.Voo on Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:38 pm

So I was thinking today as I travelled from city campus to tamaki and back again twice about how the meta game has changed. And I thought it would be cool to create a thread here about the meta game and how its changed, what it was like or what you think of its current state. The meta game is just simply how the game is played. This can include hero picks strategies and gameplay, generally the meta game changes from version to version although it can change part way through a version. I read a blog a while back where they were talking about previous versions and how the meta game has evolved like how before .43 there was a version when chen was first picked because centaurs(i think) had a move speed aura that stacked so you could get a pretty much perma hasted team, this of course didn't matter if you were on scourge cause it was before the creation of allpick modes XD. Anyways a quick recap of how i remember the game up untill this version.

Well I can't really remember a lot before .48b and even then I was just pubbing. I remember being stomped by pudge and bloodseeker...but of what I remember two things really stood out for me
1, Stuns
2, Blink
Stunlocks a plenty pretty much needed to stop people from getting away and using their bottle which healed about 50% of your life...Sven Rex Bristle and Pugna are heroes that I remember seeing a lot of action that have since sorta died out. But still pretty fun games lots of ganks happening and all that good stuff.

Next version I remember was .52e which was kinda like this thing that you kinda regreat doing but then are glad you did just so you will never be tempted to do it again. Luna, spec pitlord lineups Turtle strats becoming common. In my opinion the gameplay seemed to slow down. Spec being the top pick along with luna, farming next to your lich/warlock support bitch whose role was to die for you if need be because heaven forbid you died. N'aix sorta came onto the scene around here I think and was fucking scary to lane against(and still is in most cases) But mostly you depended on your carry out farming theirs to win you the game. The role of star players aka carry players who always got praised on their farming abilities that won them the game. Ssiter must have loved it ^^

Skipping to the current version I've noticed a lot of changes in the meta game all round. Firstly the pool of heroes you can pick from that are actually viable has grown to something amazing. In .48 if it didn't have a stun or a 280dmg+ nuke you wouldn't pick it. In .52 it had to be lich warlock chen or dazzle, no exceptions. However in the current version we've seen Chaos Knight, CM, KotL, Bloodseeker, Clockwerk and Krob and seen old favourites coming back like Rexxar, Lina, Leshy, Jugga and Shadowfiend. The game seems to have changed to allow a lot of variation in picks where the game isn't decided on hero choices alone. The gameplay has changed quite considerably which was a welcome relief from those who didn't exactly love the .52 era. One of the main reasons I believe is the new blink dagger which I think is an amazing rework by icefrog. It went from amazing imbalanced to broken to a balanced thing of beauty. Another reason was the tp change a shorter cooldown and the ability for more than one person to teleport at a time was brilliant. It lets the game move from one side of the map to another and a 3v1 gank turning into a full on 5v5 team fight in a matter of seconds. Strategically the game is more fun at the moment IMO there is a lot more action. Carrys I feel have become an option where most teams are choosing not to. Semi carrys like QoP, CK, Jugga, Pirate and PotM can be just as effective provided you are playing aggresive enough. One hero I would like to mention is Weaver who is now the best source of map vision in the game as everyone else has been nerfed to death.

All round I believe the current version rocks its got more choices in every way the strategy and drafting has never been better imo gameplay is a quick pace more emphasis has been placed on teamplay and teamwork which is good because after all its dota and thats what sets it apart. That and the fact that there is no other multi lane strategy game this popular...

Well anyways that was just some ramblings I've done I'm sure I'll add to this later when I've actually got an idea on what I'm talking about but yea untill then Matt we should pick Pudge moar ^^
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Re: The Meta Game

Post  Genkidesuka on Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:17 am

PICK AXE CUZ IM 2 GUD

Chen was OP before .43 because Centaur, Kobold and Satyr Hellcaller all had stackable MS aura buffs (Endurance Aura, Quickness Aura and Unholy Aura respectively) which gave teams perma haste. Pretty fun.

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Re: The Meta Game

Post  Stankey on Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:43 pm

lol so they all had max movespeed? Well blabbed deja Razz. Was kewl to read.

I love being able to team tele and gank. Something i think we need to do more of (arose to me when i showed alk the lineup we played vs yftl, and he said zues was overated) is. When an opposition player gets too close to a tower, even if they are just chasing for a kill. Or even if you just feel like killing a lich in a lane, and youve got a tide or something to slow him. IS (finally) that a player or two from a diff lane tp's in and shift-click charges the shit out of them and kills em off. This is an area ive seen zues excel in in high level games, because of his massive range on his nukes, and an infinite range one Razz. I think if we are picking zues, he needs to do this a lot more. Because he isnt AS good late, and he needs to be utilised to his fullest early.

Also, (if i get my comp to turn on, and my sound to work) vent needs to be going for everyone, and we need to warn, might need all tp bot soon. (a warning is nice) and then everyone NEEDS to have a tp(warning gives time to get it), and we all just go and teamfight happens, we win and we tower, then back 2 our lanes, or all go gank another lane (now that ones down).

Ive decided i like lane axe > jungle axe.

Bout the weaver thing, ive hes a viable pick now, we could actually pull off a lineup with weaver/tinker. But we would need cm probably, so that tinker could just rape his lane, get buff as, then proceed to tp round raping people. Also, can pitlord tp ulti to a watcher?

EDIT: wow i wrote a fair bit rather quick lol

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Re: The Meta Game

Post  Crypt on Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:24 pm

Yeah, I think a lot of the asian teams are surprising the western Dota world with their strange picks Razz however they do actually work lol.

I think I remember seeing a game where KS went pit, THD, OD, zeus, puck versus SK's Jugg, QoP, Lion, Es, Lich. (Here's a youtube vid of it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGRQbYLlrjk), and KS kinda owned them o.O which was awesome to see.

Also recently I'm sure most of you have seen the djooks vs. YaY where they used a WR and DS which is pretty uncommon too.

All in all I think Icefrog is working hard along with the dota community to make the gameplay faster paced and more spectator friendly (one of the reasons it got removed from the 2009 ESWC Sad ).

Although I think what would be good to see in 6.60 is furion's sprout remade so that it is no longer tangoable and lower the trap time it gives, along with a longer cd on teleport. This way I think you may see more early game ganking and kills since he wont lose as much exp if he teleports back to his lane after the gank.

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Re: The Meta Game

Post  Deja.Voo on Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:06 pm

<3 Crypt for contributing useful stuff.

Me and Cameron have talked about the Asian meta game and sorta come to the conclusion that its almost as if they have a different meta game to the Europeans/Americans. Interesting that a lot of the strong new picks in each version are discovered by the Asian teams cause they tend to be more open to picking differently. Meepo/Visage were classic examples of this. Also they lane a lot differently, I remember one game where EHOME I think played a SF/Lion lane just so they could have lock solo. I personally thought it was amazing Cameron opted that they were stupid. Interestingly KS^national has a play style that is sorta in the middle of the two.

That game MYM vs YaY was just really really weird. I'm not too sure what happened there I mean Darkseer is a really nice counter to a pudge omni lane so that made them sorta useless but the rest of it just seemed like a combination of bad play by mym / off putting picks and good play by YaY

And recently Icefrog has made massive efforts towards the game. I really like your suggestion about furion because I would like to see him more viable as hes pretty unique in a lot of ways. Apparently in 6.60 there are going to be a few partial remakes and some more tweaking in order to balance so that all sounds promising. And lets not forget the most exciting part being the new hero, Tauren Cheiftan.
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Re: The Meta Game

Post  Stankey on Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:20 pm

yeh that should be fun Smile. I dont really like sf is hes not solo. YaY also didnt solo dp, instead they let necro and windrunner solo. Also interesting. But dp still farmed up pretty darn quickly. As i sed to cam i think, i just love the dp/enig/seer combo. So mean in teamfights, and imagine if you threw a dirge in there :S :S. But yeh they just popped ultis and pushed towers. They got base/rax kills just by doing that, even if they eventually lost teamfights. and blackhole just means every1 is stuck there, then they get silenced.

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Re: The Meta Game

Post  Crypt on Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:48 pm

I also think that ChefZaku played an amazing Nigma (cept for the one where he BH's Merlini with Repel on o.O Merlini just turned around and double killed them I think lol). I think even though nigma's ulti is amazing, its very difficult to pull off well since hes so fragile.

I also agree with Deja and say that MYM were playing bad. I would think they'd always keep Merlini away from the group in ganks etc. so as soon as Nigma blink ulti, Merlini will bolt him, or have another member waiting as backup to counter nigma's gamebreaking ulti.

On that note do you think if a nigma could farm enough, BKB would be plausible after blink? Kinda going the same metality you would go with sand king (for some reason if he's banned or picked by enemies)

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Re: The Meta Game

Post  Deja.Voo on Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:58 pm

When it comes to Sandking Shivas is pretty much better in everyway once you've got blink cause you don't really get in their face while you ulti and they are going to be running when you blink in. But on Enigma I think most of the time you're going to be getting bkb after blink unless you want shivas.
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Re: The Meta Game

Post  Stankey on Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:34 pm

Yeh shiva is nice. The reason id bkb, isnt so u can secure channeling ulti, but to pop it after u blink stun, cus then u can actually chase rather then getin hex/stun and they just run. Shiva is similar in that u pop it and they cant run (very fast). Shiva gives u mana, bkb means u dont die as much.

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Re: The Meta Game

Post  Crypt on Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:43 am

Stankey wrote: cus then u can actually chase rather then getin hex/stun and they just run. Shiva is similar in that u pop it and they cant run (very fast). Shiva gives u mana, bkb means u dont die as much.

Shiva's is nice for the armor boost, but I think it all depends on how well you get off ulti. Also I realised one problem with BKB is that since they cant hex/stun you, then theyre gunna hex/stun your teammates o.O which could be a good or bad thing depending on the heroes.

Now that I think about it Im kinda leaning toward shivas because I think it synergises better with nigma simply because of the increased survivability and just massing AoE in general. Also with shivas it means you can gank more even when BH is on CD (as long as it isnt like mass teamfights where BH is crucial).

If we're going for a turtle strat (which I know we dont do often, but would be good to have a few different strats up our sleeves), how about Nigma and Pit combo? Its somewhat heavily aoe based, but pit's CDs are fast and we could work on the "Turning ganks around on them and pwning their face" with Pit's ulti. Also pit of malice would work really well with nigma's midnight pulse, since doing the maths here - malice + BH = 7 secs of pulse or maybe bit longer = 42% hp gone. Firestorm for 7 seconds = 420 damage, BH lvl 2 = 400 dmg or so. so around 820+ 42%-48% hp gone (we can probably get them to stay in for the full 8 seconds with help from malefice and explusion) would pretty much cripple most heroes, and this is exlcuding normal hitting/explusion/malefice.

Looks pretty good on paper, what do you think?

*Edit* Also can someone explain why sven isnt used anymore? Back in the 6.48 days you almost always saw lina/sven/lesh/sk some sort of combo of range/melee from that group there, but lina doesn't see much play (most people opting for lion instead) and neither does Sven. Did I miss something?

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Re: The Meta Game

Post  Deja.Voo on Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:27 am

Sven isn't used anymore because Naix got remade.
Thats pretty much the main reason hes dropped down a lot in terms of usefulness although I wouldn't be surprised if he came back now that semi carries are in. Also the bkb nerf sorta hurt any chances he had of coming back into the game. But basically he just isn't as good as other heroes in the pool atm and until something changes he won't be picked.

Turtle strats appeal in terms of winning but once you've played a few 90+ min games you would almost rather lose than turtle the game like crazy. Also people tend to counter turtle lineups with Ganklineups or Globals even. Venge also is incredibly useful for countering pit so its become less popular. Interestingly midgame push is quickly becoming more viable which I think is something we should be looking into. However if for some reason we were to play a turtle strat then yea pit + qop + enigma +luna + somethign stupid like terrorblade or huskar.

And when it comes to Sandking like crypt said if ulti blnik then bkb they are just going to aim your teammates which normally isn't a good thing and sandking can easily just sandstorm/stun out to get away so its nearly always better if he gets aimed and dies provided hes got his ulti off.
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Re: The Meta Game

Post  Crypt on Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:20 pm

Hmm midgame push? Like Dpro etc.?

As for Sven, I reckon he has a different playstyle from naix so really he shouldn't be replaced. I think Sven has a viable chance of being hero killer/push (so like kill them and while GS still on push the tower) with just treads bottle and bracers, and later when they have purge, he needs a BKB. However, naix is more of an agressive laner and relys more on items (armlet at least Imo, after that depends on how the game progresses), so maybe Sven could be viable in a mid-game push strat?

Personally I quite like him since he was my first "real" hero and also he's one of the few that honestly does not need much ricing do deal lots of damage Very Happy

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Re: The Meta Game

Post  DR on Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:05 pm

Lion doesn't need a set up unlike lina. Also ban enigma, freaking imbalanced.

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Re: The Meta Game

Post  Stankey on Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:05 pm

yeh, only thing bout sven is he owns wen u last hit everything (like wen loda played him lots) and your dps is just bloody scary. Cus he can die rather quick, but you cant kill him if ur gna die in 4 hits, where as naix kinda can take a bit more punishing with life steal and his ulti to save his ass if hes on red. My point was if svens dps isnt up enough (bad farm) then he can kinda fail quite badly, but then i realised the uselessness of my point because this is kinda the same with naix. Oh i remember, it was if naix's farm isnt great he wont die as much as sven with bad farm?? maybe??

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Re: The Meta Game

Post  Crypt on Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:19 pm

But naix with bad farm = no damage = not much lifesteal. Sven with bad farm and vlads (easy farm item) = still GG lifesteal with GS though.

The point I was trying to get across was, there arent many str heroes out there that can still deal that much dmg with just treads 2x bracers and bottle. (cept maybe centuar, hes pretty scary o.O or slardar)

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Re: The Meta Game

Post  Stankey on Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:51 pm

we shud try sven, just for shits. Yeh i wana try centaur aswel. We needa play some clans worse then us so we can practice them Razz

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Re: The Meta Game

Post  Deja.Voo on Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:01 pm

o.O or slardar)

We have a winnar. Sven is near useless its not even worth trying to argue that and Naix isn't as amazing as he once was but...slardar is a really nice counter to a certain hero that no one seems to have mentioned on here. And playing sven just for shits and giggles is fine but we don't really need to practise it. ALso Centaur>Sven but still Slardar>Centaur
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Re: The Meta Game

Post  Crypt on Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:31 pm

Hmm yeah I added Slardar because he used to be one of my fav heroes Smile Plus amp dmg is awesome in messing up any ganks since it is really really spammable (free vision ftw!). Ive seen a few games where Slardar was used back in 6.48 but haven't been seeing much of him nowadays :/ Imo Slardar > BH unless they have a Riki, in which case BH might be better.
Not sure why he's neglected but maybe he might be a good last pick or 2nd to last pick depending on our strat.

Im trying to think up of some nice synergy heroes with Slardar.... Preferably an aoe stun (lina?) or more -armor (SF?)

*edit* what about omniknight! Aoe stun means he'll usually be really close to enemies (pury bomb ftw), Sprint + omni's degen aura means most heroes will never get away! Also since sprint makes slardar take more damage etc. so the pury heal will be helpful in fights. Also, repel = BKB money spent else where? (deso maybe?)

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Re: The Meta Game

Post  ssiterl on Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:22 pm

I LOVE CENTAUR

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Re: The Meta Game

Post  Genkidesuka on Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:32 pm

Synergy with slardar is physical dps.

Slardar counters invis (not really) and Krob or anyone else you'd like to get down quickly.

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Re: The Meta Game

Post  DR on Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:01 pm

Btw didn't sven have a buff for a cd of GS?

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Re: The Meta Game

Post  Stankey on Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:39 pm

i remember something on him getting buffed. Something 2 do with ulti believe Razz

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Re: The Meta Game

Post  Genkidesuka on Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:29 pm

DR wrote:Btw didn't sven have a buff for a cd of GS?

Yupperz.

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