Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

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Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Genkidesuka on Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:36 pm

That's some deep shit for a title hmm?

Anyhow, I just finished watching Ks.int vs MYM game 2 where, to my disbelief, Jolie did not go bloodstone at all and instead went Guinsoo's first.

No, this doesn't make me wrong as the game was not 6.57. The reasoning behind going Guinsoo's is immediately obvious (Bloodstone wasn't rushable for Jolie as he did not do well enough early, Storm was a large threat to KS.int (which is my point, he didn't exist in 6.57 Razz) and 300 hp won't stop a Storm blinklock). But it makes me realise how situational item builds are, and how a lot more is viable on each hero than in the .48, .52e era's. For example, Puppey went Blademail on Rex for no apparent reason, Miracle rushed Deso on PotM when practically every game before that he rushed Diffusal (presumably for Axe to ff him quicker, and for Krob help), Merlini rushed BKB on Pirate even though Krob's ulti goes straight through it...

It's intriguing, hmm?

ALSO MAELK PLAY GUD AXE LYK ME

EDIT: Just realised the point of Blademail. Axe's Culling Blade deals millions of damage if the hero is below 625 health (at 16) and so Blademail would instagib Axe if he Culled him.

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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Deja.Voo on Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:13 pm

So everyone should go blademail rush if you're playing against axe so you can winrar the game.
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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  DR on Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:11 pm


EDIT: Just realised the point of Blademail. Axe's Culling Blade deals millions of damage if the hero is below 625 health (at 16) and so Blademail would instagib Axe if he Culled him.

Blademail doesn't return damages over 3k or something similar.

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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Stankey on Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:29 pm

The ih we played where D_R was dp was .59c though? wasnt it?

Also, dont guinsoo and bloodstone cost pretty similar amounts? And bloodstone has smaller cost items you can get if you cant farm 2700 for your staff (hinting at its easier to get bloodstone then guinsoo????)

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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Deja.Voo on Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:38 pm

Hate to point out the obvious but did they win that game?
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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Stankey on Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:13 pm

i assume that was a rhetorical question

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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Genkidesuka on Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:54 pm

DR wrote:

EDIT: Just realised the point of Blademail. Axe's Culling Blade deals millions of damage if the hero is below 625 health (at 16) and so Blademail would instagib Axe if he Culled him.

Blademail doesn't return damages over 3k or something similar.

Mhmm, tested and correct.

So, no idea why he went it over Book then... maybe he was just testing it? Odd choice of games to do that, as Deja pointed out to me.

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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Deja.Voo on Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:05 pm

The games ks^int vs mym were interesting but not really exciting to watch. First game Sandking went radi over shivas and solo'd mid against brood. Axe solo in both games. Sandking was even banned in the second game by ks^int. Wierd shit in every game from ks^int not really sure what their thoughts were, maybe they didn't care about the tourny I dunno. MYM however played as solid and consistent as they usually do and won it. Maybe rex bought a wrong item and decided to give it a try I don't know seems weird. These games sorta showed me again that I'd rather go necrobook over guinsoos with the current state of the meta game. Just for the damage output and mana burn but also the true sight helps with ward sweeping and all that good stuff. Also the makeup of it is really good, saving you from farming up 2k+ gold twice and you gain a lot of benefits from it earlier than soos. Obviously you're going to want disables but thats what heroes like lina lion sk rhasta etc are for and why they ahve been picked more recently but thats my opinion and its all relative anyway. Heroes like pitlord furion and leshrac for example benefit more from guinsoos whereas heroes like qop, puck and bane do better with necrobook. I mean neither item is going to be a setback if you get it early enough on most heroes.
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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Stankey on Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:28 pm

whats this?? im shocked and stunned that im hearing this coming from you and genki lol. Ive been waiting for this for months Razz

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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Genkidesuka on Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:44 pm

Stankey wrote:whats this?? im shocked and stunned that im hearing this coming from you and genki lol. Ive been waiting for this for months Razz

Waiting for what?
=

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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Deja.Voo on Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:02 pm

I think the point where we differ is going something different because of player choice isn't a good enough reason there has to be some strategical thought behind it which a lot of the time to be blunt there isn't. I think Matt you'll agree that we probably have a better understanding of the game than most even if our gameplay isn't as high as others (I seem to remember a rather heated discussion about this late one night).
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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Stankey on Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:08 pm

yup ill agree with that. im just saying that you guys havent always thought everything through (example, genki with guinsoo), and others might go items because "experience" not "thought" so much, has shown them that it works. That doesnt mean that its bad, and that if you guys thought about it objectively (not with your "pro player build" prejiduces) you might come to the conclusion that it actually isnt that bad.

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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Genkidesuka on Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:25 pm

Hi, my name is xxnaruto1650, and I've been playing pubs for 3 1/2 years now. My build on ES is to rush several battlefuries for incredible enchant totem cleave hits. It hasn't failed me in a pub yet, so I think pro players should at least try it out.

NO! Common sense alone would tell you thats a terrible idea, ie the power of thought. No I wasn't wrong about Guinsoos (well obviously, since I'm never wrong), as we were playing 6.57 (I'm pretty sure of it) against no zero-cooldown-blink heroes whereas Jolie was playing 6.59c against a rather intimidating Storm. I still don't think his build was right and it didn't exactly win him the game either (as DP is supposed to).

Your argument that there are several viable builds on each hero is wrong. The comparison between, say, Bloodstone and Linkens on DP is like the comparison between Diffusal and Armlet on Nightstalker. Just because you might need diffusal to counter omni/warlock does not mean they're direct substitutes for each other.

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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Stankey on Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:26 pm

lol. No we were playing new vers. we only play old ver in ssdl now. Which is dead.

There are different builds on different heroes, based on who your facing. If you like had to pick your build for your hero before you started the game, and you had no idea what you were going to be playing against/with then there probly is a most "correct/best" build. Gd example is naix. your standard might be armlet/treads/deso, but if you know ur oppents (say potm/qop) you might go the blink/orchid build that i remember you ranting and raving about being so "amazingly awesome" back when whoever it was did it.

Or when deja went orchid on... someone? qop? when we were vs an antimage.

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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Deja.Voo on Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:21 pm

http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showtopic=247613
Found this a little while ago been thinking about it a bit esp after the convo i had with matt and joe after one of our scrims. I will reply tomrrow with something that might be possibly profound but will more likely be a ramble about nothing.
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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Stankey on Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:43 pm

i dont know if ive read the whole thing, i think ive skimmed over it a month or two ago when i was researching who milkman was (start of ssdl), but in first two paragraphs i found this, kind of pertinent i thought. EDIT: i did read it before, its not that long lol.

Milkman wrote:One thing to always remember is that you are not the best, and there is always room for improvement, no matter how good you think you are. You should listen to other players and take their opinions and advice into account, especially those better than you, but should always think and make decisions for yourself instead of mindlessly copying those better than you.

We spent a shit load of time arguing (the bit after the last comma i wrote a short novel on lol), when i think this sums it up.

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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  DR on Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:31 pm

Radiance on sandking kills watchers, I haven't seen replay yet, but that stops opposing team just running away as soon as they see you channelling for blink ulti (if he went blink). Regardless it still wipes watchers.

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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Stankey on Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:00 pm

they seriously had no1 better then sk to go raddy? But yeh if other team go weaver, would u conter pick a treant or pirate or spec who can go rad? (more standardly)

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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  DR on Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:21 pm

Well I'm pretty sure spec pirate tree don't need a 2 second channel blink ulti. Razz

The rad also would need to be around where sk is, so if you did get it on say tree, you'd need tree to stick with sk to clear watchers first...

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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Genkidesuka on Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:21 pm

It wasn't that they didn't have anyone else to go radi, it was that MaNia's SK was doing well enough for him to get it fairly quickly. On a side note, I used to see him as a Tompa-esque but, similar to Levent, he has really fledged and now is a really good player. It's nice to see.

Tompa on the other hand is a fat shit.

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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Deja.Voo on Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:48 pm

Issue is you've got to think about the pick order chances are people will last pick weaver so you might not have the ability to take something that can go radi. Even if you've got final pick most heroes that go radi require solo or are melee which might just not work. But yeah as Cameron said SK only went it because he was doing amazing.
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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Stankey on Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:29 pm

oh right, ive seen a few sk's solo vs brood. well two. But yeah d_r i think u miss read what i said lol. Yeah true, weaver isnt really a fist pick haha

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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  DR on Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:46 pm

Me misread? NO way!

*rereads*
okay... maybe a little misread, but as if pick a hero specifically to get rad against weaver XD.

Anyway from what you said, I thought you mean't why wouldn't someone else on the team get raddy?

It also brings up a game from VP vs MYM, where the VP sk went rad as well, someone asked why and since this was 6.48b days or so it was to counter BM's hawk.

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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Tangerine on Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:42 pm

Hate to point out the obvious but did they win that game?

Hate to poke a hole through your logic but at DLM Jolie solo banshee rushed guinsoo against MYM and Ks.int pubstomped MYM that game so the fact that Ks.int losing is no indication that guinsoo is a bad first item on banshee. As genki says it's obvious why banshee would go sheepstick, when certain heroes absolutely need to be stopped by everything possible and sheeping them is infinitely better than bloodstone eg. ss.

Miracle rushed Deso on PotM when practically every game before that he rushed Diffusal (presumably for Axe to ff him quicker, and for Krob help), Merlini rushed BKB on Pirate even though Krob's ulti goes straight through it...

You do realise that in most cases where there is no need to purge something then PotM goes deso? Diffu would in no way have helped against MYM's lineup. As for bkb rush you are forgetting that ks.int has lina/potm/na/beastmaster so the bkb was for the 4 stuns.

Wierd shit in every game from ks^int not really sure what their thoughts were, maybe they didn't care about the tourny I dunno.

Ks.int has done weird shit every game so it's not because they don't care about the tourney it's because whoever adapts to the new map fastest usually comes out on top. Like everyone else people were sick of the picking in .57b which is why you see Ks.int and TPL picking rhasta or the recent bane/enigma use. Also ks.int has used weaver twice before that game vs MYM. As for why Ks.int banned sandking it's simply because MaNia is the best sandking out there and has been for 3 years. It's similar to how everyone used to permaban meepo against kuroky or how you guys banned syllabear against CotA.

On a side note, I used to see him as a Tompa-esque but, similar to Levent, he has really fledged and now is a really good player. It's nice to see.

Yo you missed out son cos MaNia and LevenT have been owning for 3 years straight and if it wasn't for vP everyone would have been creaming themselves over MaNia gank. MaNia's gank is pretty legendary while ToMpa being bad is pretty legendary too. I can't stop laughing at calling MaNia and LevenT as becoming fully fledged and only now becoming good players.

Also yo Stankey MYM invented the solo sandking versus brood. Also DR is right, in .48b and even earlier it was pretty standard for sandking to farm a radiance after blink/BoT so it's not out there that MaNia would choose radiance against weaver instead of shivas. It's the same as why s2s' pirate tried to rush radiance against ks.int when they last picked weaver. Also yes someone else could have gone radiance => Morphling but really Morphling has better builds to go with and with lock on the other team diffusal would have been infinitely better than radiance.

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Re: Conceding with an air of disbelief, and afterthoughts

Post  Genkidesuka on Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:18 pm


You do realise that in most cases where there is no need to purge something then PotM goes deso? Diffu would in no way have helped against MYM's lineup. As for bkb rush you are forgetting that ks.int has lina/potm/na/beastmaster so the bkb was for the 4 stuns.

Mm, diffusal is still a decent choice even without omni/warlock to purge, although since their focus was to keep storm down, an extra slow would not have helped them much. I know that Vigoss always rushes it but since he goes HoM/BoT practically 100% of games I would say that's just down to preference. In terms of item builds practically anything works on PotM.

And that's 3 stuns that BKB blocks, since Roar goes through. But I can't see them FF'ing an already shipped Pirate with not a lot in the way of items.


Ks.int has done weird shit every game so it's not because they don't care about the tourney it's because whoever adapts to the new map fastest usually comes out on top. Like everyone else people were sick of the picking in .57b which is why you see Ks.int and TPL picking rhasta or the recent bane/enigma use. Also ks.int has used weaver twice before that game vs MYM. As for why Ks.int banned sandking it's simply because MaNia is the best sandking out there and has been for 3 years. It's similar to how everyone used to permaban meepo against kuroky or how you guys banned syllabear against CotA.

I can't remember ever banning syllabear against you guys, maybe I was never in those games... I will agree that who adapts fastest wins. I guess the tourney was double elim, they didn't expect to lose to anyone but maybe MYM in any stage, and they just want to try shit out and make it work.


Yo you missed out son cos MaNia and LevenT have been owning for 3 years straight and if it wasn't for vP everyone would have been creaming themselves over MaNia gank. MaNia's gank is pretty legendary while ToMpa being bad is pretty legendary too. I can't stop laughing at calling MaNia and LevenT as becoming fully fledged and only now becoming good players.

No, I'm serious when I say that. They haven't been 'owning' for 3 years straight. They've been doing well, but nothing exceptional (in my view). MaNia's SK never stood out to me. I know there's a reason Maelk stated himself that MaNia was probably the best gank hero player in the world, but I never actually saw it myself until recently.

And yes, LevenT has fledged as a player. When he was with MYM all he ever played was Lina. But Ks.int are giving him nearly everything and he is coping very well with it, he is actually showing the world that there is more that he can play.


Also yo Stankey MYM invented the solo sandking versus brood. Also DR is right, in .48b and even earlier it was pretty standard for sandking to farm a radiance after blink/BoT so it's not out there that MaNia would choose radiance against weaver instead of shivas. It's the same as why s2s' pirate tried to rush radiance against ks.int when they last picked weaver. Also yes someone else could have gone radiance => Morphling but really Morphling has better builds to go with and with lock on the other team diffusal would have been infinitely better than radiance.

Morphling is also a lot more dependant on his items, a radi is not necessarily a bad thing but there are so many more items for him that do so much more, such as a diffusal to counter Lock. MaNia was something crazy like 8-1 with possibly the highest cs in the game so it was no trouble for him to go it.

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