Jungling

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Re: Jungling

Post  Genkidesuka on Mon May 12, 2008 7:54 pm

Stankey wrote:any1 know of a good tb jungle guide? or just some hints? Ill have a look on you tube now lolz.

TB jungles through frequent fountain trips, or creep suicides. The build to go is generally image/stats or one point in image, metamorph stats. The first for fast killing, the second for survivability. I know what you're thinking. Why not skip soul steal? It allows him to jungle without problems. However, this is the entire point of jungling. To skip this skill which is made 100% redundant past about level 10, and instead invest in useful points such as +8 to all stats.

I'm not sure if there's a TB jungling guide but I know there's a premium guide on www.dotaportal.com written by Baconzilla, there may be jungling discussed in that.

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Re: Jungling

Post  DR on Tue May 13, 2008 9:41 pm

But the player didnt even spend all their gold O_o, but yeah, when they gold is saved it does save you 20-30 seconds or so (definitely worth considering in some cases)?

Anyway as for jungling, I thought up of this yesterday?

If you are sent you should have your jungler + whatever hero(s) are going to be in bot. You creep block the first wave so enemy creeps get hurt by tower (just have to block enough so enemy creeps get in tower range). This means your second wave you can use to pull without having enemy creeps ruin your tower.

If you don't pull the second creep wave, you can always use this for a very offensive push strat.

I find this hides the first "missing" creep wave, afterwards it depends on your laners

End wave of innovation Razz

After that you can pull down the creep camp above the first one by either using a tango to eat a tree, or any other skills you might think worth using. If you have enough creeps can pull the camp after. After those three camps are done, you go to small camp and cause a respawn (pull them at about 52-4, run off, another spawn at 60). Thats the triple pull method that you can find on dota-allstars.

What I find useful is that we can double-triple spawn etc. camps even while laning, then just kill them off when we need to. I've been trying to take advantage of more creeps spawning whenever possible Smile.

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Re: Jungling

Post  Genkidesuka on Wed May 14, 2008 8:01 am

If they suicided with still some gold (like 50+) then yeah, they must have fucked something up. Either that, or it was an item independant jungler with absolutely zero need for items. But I doubt that's the case.

No, you're not the first person to think that up sorry, it has just been proven to be a waste of time. Firstly, you probably won't be focusing on pushing if your first tower isn't down yet. Secondly, you'd probably push better if you there with your creeps anyway. Lastly, you had the idea.

Creep stacking is nice with some junglers, but definitely not all. The few that I can think of are Centaur, Axe, Rexxar, and Dark Seer (anyone with an AoE). The problem with TB stacking is sure, you have a couple more creeps in the one camp. But you're not going to kill them any faster. And if you've stacked, say, a noob camp, you're not going to get much benefit especially since you're taking the 10ish seconds to actually stack the camp in the first place. So you're saving about 5 seconds of movement time by spending 10 seconds to stack. If you're stacking a big camp, then sure, you're going to get some benefit out of it, but you're probably going to take a massive amount of damage as well. So its not worth it there, either. However, for AoE junglers, since more creeps usually amounts to an insignificant amount of extra time spent, there is all the more reason for them to do so.

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Re: Jungling

Post  DR on Wed May 14, 2008 9:32 am

I think you didn't quite get my meaning? As to thinking of it first, I'm sure everyone in dota who thinks up something there is several others who think of it (well at least for me, but it doesn't matter, the understanding behind it is what matters to me).

Firstly, you probably won't be focusing on pushing if your first tower isn't down yet. Secondly, you'd probably push better if you there with your creeps anyway.

It is a priority you take down enemy towers down, when the 1st sent tower bot goes down, that whole area becomes alot easier to gank. They also cant fast tp in help to that area. Taking down towers is map control.

You can "over" creep block the first wave and EITHER jungle with the "extra" wave or push aggressively.

For the creep stacking, you can also mix that with creep pulling. The high level creep camp for scourge is example. About half the time when you pull it, you can pull them and while you pull, another spawns, then your creeps come along and help.

Also you can double/triple spawn the low level camps, which if you have any aoe means you can get alot out of them when you decide to kill them off.

Btw stankey, I don't think there is any hero which tries to eat two furbies alone at lvl 1 Razz. It usually tends to be they pull creeps to a mid level camp or eat the low level one. You can do with image/stats till lvl 6 where you get ult, then finish off image start going metamorphosis. What I'm not sure about is it it worth getting 1 lvl of lifesteal at lvl 8 to heal any damage you take, or just buy pots.

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Re: Jungling

Post  Genkidesuka on Wed May 14, 2008 2:29 pm

But you're saying you'd rather their creeps free attack your tower in order for you to get two waves pushing at the same time? Wouldn't that be unnecessary tower health lost of yours solved by them with a simple tp to their tower? I could understand the strategy behind that if you were looking for a tower deny though, that would work well.

Also, how are you planning to creep pull bot to kill the sent tower (assuming you mean you're scourge)?

Sure you can clear noob camps double/triple stacked if you have aoe, but doesn't TB have none?

Lastly, TB jungles mana inefficiently (early) as it is, so you don't need an incredibly useless 20 hp/s which loses relevance in anything but jungling early and is a complete waste of mana over a very helpful +2 stats (or meta).

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Re: Jungling

Post  DR on Wed May 14, 2008 4:57 pm

I think ill just say initially, just because I post stuff in the same post, doesn't mean they all have to be together Razz, just assume i tend to ramble in my posts Razz.

But you're saying you'd rather their creeps free attack your tower in order for you to get two waves pushing at the same time?
That doesn't happen (well you could make it happen, why I'm not sure, as you said with tower denies that would work). You can creep block a wave to the point where it meets the enemy wave while in tower range.

At lvl 8 the time spent dead to me, and the gold loss (also round this time you start farming for ult orbs) isn't worth dying/going back to heal repeatedly, also there is alot more ganking round this time, so you wouldn't want to say low hp if you can help it. You also have a sufficiently larger mana pool, so you start wanting to stay jungling/laning more. Hence a level in that 20 hp/s would be considered useful.

If you are scourge bot trying to pull to push sent bot tower, I can't see a realistic way to achieve that at the moment. (some far fetched ones but all in all not something youd do reliably).

You would stack the noob camp for aoe ones. For tb, you would stack the camp you can pull creeps to help with.

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Re: Jungling

Post  Stankey on Wed May 14, 2008 7:59 pm

Firstly i dont think u can use ur ulti on creeps if u were implying that. just level one in life drain is pretty much useless, if your in a creep lane they will hurt u faster or the same as your healing, which means u just loose minimal health and kill them REALLY SLOWLY. You would be better just killing them quickly and not loosing much, you could even freaking run to the fountain in the time it would take to drain with 20hp/sec. I either get lvl 3/4 or nothing. Only thing lvl 1 would be good for is healing when your fighting creeps in a lane (when no one is attacking you. I guess also if you make your image tank, but then you would need another one (using lotza mana). Ive found i can jungle with tb just getting drain and stats and he doesnt run out of mana because drain is such low mana cost.

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Re: Jungling

Post  DR on Wed May 14, 2008 8:57 pm

I wasn't Razz the day you can sunder creeps is the day misclicks kill tb XD. What you do is image, and while image tanks, you get the heal. Or if you pulled creeps, you get the hp while they tank. And yes, using lifesteal to kill creeps takes waaaaaaaaay too long Razz.

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Re: Jungling

Post  bjchance on Thu May 15, 2008 12:46 pm

Two of my personal favorite junglers are jugg and leshrac. I know I know...Don't even say it. But with jugg on a bad day I can get to lvl 6 in about 9-10 minutes and have about 1200 gold. On a good day, which means there wernt many mud golems, I can get to lvl 6 in 6-7 minutes and have 1500 gold by then.

Leshrac is a pure demon when jungled properly, but its not very practical. If you jungle with him, be it sent or scourge, you have to creep pull A LOT. Diabolic edic massacres creeps though. With lesh I can generally hit lvl 7 by 9-10 minutes and have about 1500 gold. It's not great and lesh can be better in a lane, but it is possible and can be effective.


BTW alch isnt just a punching bad. He can deal mean damage with his ult on and he's probably the best farmer in the game. Acid spray is imba. His real threat is his stun though. One properly placed stun and you can destroy a person.
Last note on alchemist I generally have 100+ regen per second on him without his ulti. With his ulti its like WOAH. And btw if you get armlet on alchemist and you turn on his lvl 3 ulti you won't take damage from the armlet.
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Re: Jungling

Post  Stankey on Thu May 15, 2008 4:16 pm

Yea i just watched and read a bit about tb jungling. Yea its image and stats for the win, with a fair bit of creep pulling and tangos needed. You gota get wraith bands at the start. Its nice jump in the lane a bit to, to last hit a few creeps while u regen a bit and the creeps respawn. Im going to try it out 2nite i think.

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Re: Jungling

Post  Genkidesuka on Sun May 18, 2008 7:15 pm

I would jungle Jugger a bit in, say, IHs where jungling actually benefits your team. But when you're in a pub, and people just feed if you let them solo, I'd prefer to stay in a lane and usually rack up a bunch of kills.

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Re: Jungling

Post  Half-Br33D on Mon May 19, 2008 6:27 pm

Lycanthropes a pretty good hero for jungling but i wouldnt really pick him in a war or a scrim..
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Re: Jungling

Post  DEATH.TO.ALL on Mon May 19, 2008 8:29 pm

Half-Br33D wrote:Lycanthropes a pretty good hero for jungling but i wouldnt really pick him in a war or a scrim..

SO TRUE!
You guys dont know anything about jungling...
The only person in DoA who knew as much if not more than me was (Hate to say it...) Cream
I gotta eat dinner now but I am going to teach you guys to jungle!!

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Re: Jungling

Post  Stankey on Mon May 19, 2008 9:15 pm

Wow are u seriously telling me i cant jungle. I have read a lot about jungling man, and ive practiced it heaps. I can double creep stack, double creep pull, micro bottle refills on hawk while jungling, stop killing and then pull so corpses arent left when the respawn time comes, i can not quite out level a solo, cus thats freaking hard, but i can out level people in a double lane. Not to meantion im one pro as farmer lol. But yeah i know the times etc and where the creep zones are (the ones that nothing must be in for them to respawn).

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Re: Jungling

Post  DEATH.TO.ALL on Tue May 20, 2008 3:55 pm

Ur fine. Rest dont know what they are talking about.

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Re: Jungling

Post  Stankey on Tue May 20, 2008 6:12 pm

Yeah i had to tell someone who will remain nameless about why the creeps wouldn't spawn when he was standing next 2 them rofl.

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Re: Jungling

Post  DR on Tue May 20, 2008 6:40 pm

Awww I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about Smile. And for whoever was standing at 2 minutes... well they've learnt something important Razz

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Re: Jungling

Post  Stankey on Tue May 20, 2008 6:44 pm

Yeah lols except it wasnt 2 mins because it was -ap.

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Re: Jungling

Post  DR on Tue May 20, 2008 7:10 pm

I've actually wondered, do you think they put in a trigger to stop you double spawning at 3, I'll try it later Razz.

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Re: Jungling

Post  Stankey on Tue May 20, 2008 7:22 pm

lolz not sure.

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Re: Jungling

Post  DR on Wed May 21, 2008 9:45 am

Just tested that in single player, they didn't, so really instead of pulling as soon as they spawn you could just wait till 3, double spawn and then pull O_o.

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Re: Jungling

Post  Stankey on Wed May 21, 2008 1:06 pm

yeah or you can just pull, eat a tree and keep them going to the next camp. Hard but its good if u can pull it off, then u go kill the easy camp and come back for some more pulling or stacking depending on your hero.

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Re: Jungling

Post  DR on Wed May 21, 2008 6:00 pm

Yeah you could, I'm wondering where the situation would be good to do both, only if you have aoe I suspect, or you plan on tanking some. I will experiment a little.

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Re: Jungling

Post  Stankey on Wed May 21, 2008 6:07 pm

na, you just do it when the first lot is bout 2 die, so when the neuts get out of their fighting zone and they return to their camp, whats left of your creeps from the first fight follows them.

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Re: Jungling

Post  Genkidesuka on Thu May 22, 2008 1:22 pm

DR wrote:Just tested that in single player, they didn't, so really instead of pulling as soon as they spawn you could just wait till 3, double spawn and then pull O_o.

It would be helpful; you could clear an entire wave of your creeps without having to pull the next camp Razz. Well, also if you were Axe.

I was all excited when 6.52 first came out, because I thought that neutrals hadn't been changed, and that they still spawned at 2 minutes. Still, it was SOME sort of buff.

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Re: Jungling

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